FOSDEM/PGDay 2020 Developer Meeting

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A meeting for PostgreSQL developers will be held in conjunction with the PostgreSQL Europe FOSDEM Devroom and FOSDEM/PGDay 2020 events in Brussels, Belgium. The meeting is planned for January 30. In order to keep the meeting focused, productive, and with a high level of interaction, the meeting is invite-only. Due to the large developer community, we cannot invite every active contributor. If you feel that you, or someone else, should've been invited then please contact Daniel Gustafsson.

This is a Community event, organized and financed by PostgreSQL Europe.

Time and Location

The meeting will be held at the Hilton Brussels Grand Place Hotel, which is the venue where FOSDEM PGDay 2020 is arranged the day after on January 31. The meeting starts at 9AM and is scheduled to end at 5PM. Coffee, tea and snacks will be provided during the day, as well as lunch.

Attendees

The following hackers have RSVP'd to the meeting and will be attending:

  • Joe Conway
  • Dmitry Dolgov
  • Peter Eisentraut
  • Andres Freund
  • Stephen Frost
  • Daniel Gustafsson
  • Magnus Hagander
  • Bruce Momjian
  • Julien Rouhaud
  • Tomas Vondra
  • Vik Fearing
  • Devrim Gündüz
  • Álvaro Herrera
  • ..more TBA

The following hackers have been invited but are unable to attend:

  • Andrew Dunstan
  • Kyotaro Horiguchi
  • Alexander Korotkov
  • Tom Lane
  • Amit Langote
  • Noah Misch
  • Thomas Munro
  • Michael Paquier
  • Peter Geoghegan
  • Jeff Davis
  • Masahiko Sawada
  • Simon Riggs
  • Andrew Gierth
  • John Naylor
  • Heikki Linnakangas
  • Robert Haas
  • Christoph Berg
  • Dave Page

Suggested Topics

Please add topics for discussion to the list:

  • CI build feedback/information directly in CF app (Daniel)
  • Update from packagers (Devrim)
  • Report from SQL working group (Peter)
  • CoC committee report (Vik)
  • The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay (Magnus)
  • Commitfest triage

Agenda

Time Item Presenter
09:00 - 09:15 Welcome and introductions Daniel
09:15 - 09:45 Report from SQL working group Peter E
09:45 - 10:15 The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay Magnus
10:15 - 10:30 CoC committee report Vik
10:30 - 11:00 Coffee break
11:00 - 11:30 Update from packagers Devrim
11:30 - 12:00 CI build feedback/information directly in CF app Daniel
12:00 - 12:30 Overflow slot, other topics All
12:30 - 13:30 Lunch
13:30 - 15:00 Commitfest Triage All
15:00 - 15:30 Tea break
15:30 - 16:45 Commitfest Triage All


16:45 - 17:00 Any other business, plans for next year Daniel
17:00 Finish

Minutes

(minutes by Peter Eisentraut)

Attendees:

  • Joe Conway
  • Dmitry Dolgov
  • Peter Eisentraut
  • Vik Fearing
  • Andres Freund
  • Stephen Frost
  • Devrim Gündüz
  • Daniel Gustafsson
  • Magnus Hagander
  • Bruce Momjian
  • Julien Rouhaud
  • Tomas Vondra

(Álvaro Herrera was registered but did not attend.)

Report from SQL working group

Peter gave report from activities in SQL working group:

  • SQL/MDA was published. Some people were interested in learning more.
  • current schedule: SQL:2021 in July 2021
  • could align this with PG14
  • will contain new JSON data type, integration with existing PG functionality to be determined
  • otherwise most focus is on GQL and SQL/PGQ (graph database)
  • There will be a committee draft (CD) soon, opportunity for feedback.

Anyone with questions can contact Peter.

Question about streaming: It is being talked about in SQL WG, but it's not likely in SQL:2021.

The future of this devmeeting and FOSDEM PGDay

   magnus: Do we want to keep the dev meeting, PGEU is happy to keep it if wanted.
   magnus: Change to unconference?
   stephen: Should we discuss that at the end of the day?
   peter: It would be nice to have a dev space at each conference.
   andres: This meeting dooesn’t have quorum to decide anything.
   stephen: People wanted to make the PGCon dev meeting longer.
   stephen: PGCon meeting format was changed last year, most people seemed pleased with the outcome.
   stephen: Who should be invited? Do we all need to stay all day?
   peter: Open up the invitation, with a formal call for participation.  Using the PGEU conference system
   seems possible.
   bruce: Is it a set of committee reports, is it a steering meeting, what is the format?
   magnus: We could dial in people as necessary (patch authors).
   magnus/stephen: Should different dev meetings have different focus?
   [Lots of discussion around last year’s PGCon invitation list.  Most
   people had concerns about how the change was intransparent and done
   too late, not necessarily with the way the meeting turned out.]
   peter: Run it like a conference, with an org committee.
   stephen: We then still have to decide what the purpose of the meeting is.
   tomas: There should be a formal group and formal criteria of how people are invited, it has to be transparent
   and public.
   [lots of more discussion]

Action: Stephen will gather a committee (Vik and Andres also volunteered, and he will ask Dave Page) to be in charge of the meeting in a public way.

coffee break

CoC committee report

Vik reporting

  • CoC 1st anniversary
  • Vik and Lætitia stepped down to rotate in new members
  • new: Carole Arnaud, Umair Shahid
  • one active investigation
  • plan for 2020: develop guidelines for conference organizers
   bruce: Has the committee considered whether the committee itself turned out beneficial?
   vik: Not specifically but there has been informal feedback that the existence makes people feel safer/better.
   bruce: The committee makes it easier to introduce diversity into the community.
   [various discussions on the nuances on the CoC process and committee, also about having external people on the
   CoC committee]
   stephen: feedback: There are communication/handover problems between sysadmins, core, CoC committee.

(follow-up discussion: Bruce will take up the last item.)

CI build feedback/information directly in CF app

at 11:30 Thomas Munro was dialed in from New Zealand

   daniel: Integrating cfbot into commit fest app would take workload off CFM.
   thomas: It runs on FreeBSD with jails and ZFS, how to move to pginfra (Debian).
   [Thomas seemed happy for pginfra to take over the hosting of this.]
   [Some discussion on the technical details.  Both Stephen and Thomas and the rest agreed that it's doable.]

Action: Stephen will set up VM, Thomas will port to Debian, Magnus will also participate.

   thomas: There is limited capacity on the free tiers of Travis and AppVeyor.
   [discussion about getting sponsorship for paid tiers.]
   daniel: curl project gets free capacity from AppVeyor.

Action: Stephen will reach out.

   andres/peter: We should commit .travis.yml etc. into core.  Peter will follow up.

Update from packagers

Devrim reporting

  • He wanted to define a process for communicating with packagers, but didn't get it done yet.
  • Getting extensions ported to new major versions is a significant problem. The packager is usually the person users end up complaining to.
   devrim: perhaps a meeting with extension authors (pgcon, pgconfeu), make sure extensions are up to date with
   new majors
   devrim: doesn’t want to ping people; should have a status page of some kind
   should we kick out extensions from packaging that are not updated to major releases? — doesn’t fix the problem,
   users are still left unable to upgrade

lunch

   [packaging continued]
   devrim: wants to find a better way to communicate with extension authors
   peter: maybe a wiki page about which extensions are updated
   peter: Christoph [Berg, Debian packager] appears to have the building automated and sends bug reports to
   extensions.
   devrim: Even if the bugs are fixed, no updated versions are formally released.
   magnus: maybe test extensions against master continuously

Devrim will talk to Christoph about being more efficient.

Contributors recognition team

Vik reporting

This team was launched based on last year's meeting FOSDEM/PGDay_2019_Developer_Meeting. The team consists of Vik, Stephen, Dave Page, Robert Haas.

   vik: feels not heard, disputes about recognizing not just code contributions
   stephen, vik: Team is not effective.  Team cannot get agreement on what the rules are.
   peter, vik: Remove the contributors list on the web site altogether.
   andres, daniel: This list gets people jobs.
   vik: Make it just developers?
   stephen, magnus: We should have a list of team members on web site.
   vik: doesn’t want to be on the committee
   stephen: Committee requires unanimity to decide anything.
   stephen: The committee has no guidance what the rules should be.
   peter: I thought the committee was supposed to decide the rules.
   bruce: We need to decide whether to do it right or remove all non-code contributors.
   peter: Core team needs to take up action; give policy guidances to committee.

Action: Core team to decide on contributor recognition rules and give that to the committee to implement.

   more discussion on putting a list of teams on the web site, fed from mailing list memberships
   Do we need to ask for consent? Do we want to show that for all teams?
   Will we require real names? -- That's a different discussion.

tea break

Commitfest Triage

Bruce reporting on transparent data encryption (TDE)

   bruce: TDE having calls every two weeks (Bruce, Joe Conway, HighGo, others), email thread had too many
   contributors with limited understanding
   bruce: We will produce green field patches, for PG13 key management system only.
   bruce: Wiki page is up to date: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Transparent_Data_Encryption
   tomas: thread is confusing, need to reduce scope
   andres: concerned about system impact
   bruce: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/26/2196/ is current
   various discussion on technical details
   andres, others: Wiki page should be cleaned up and actual implementation plan added for review by hackers.

The meeting then reviewed some other patches in the commitfest app.

other

   peter: thoughts on release management team?
   andres: last year team had no time zone overlap, bad
   peter: thoughts on PG12 release quality?
   andres: we need better (not necessarily more) tests
   try codecov.io (make available in cfbot?)
   add a “Tests” topic to cf app
   about this meeting: do it again
   andres: maybe consider splitting up into groups, could be done in the same room

minutes ended 17:10